cthulhu-communism:

iicraft505:

cthulhu-communism:

iicraft505:

cthulhu-communism:

iicraft505:

Shoplifting on this website is directly correlated with communism.

There are no successful communist societies, I’m sorry.

Shoplifting is objectively stupid, because it, if it harms anyone from a big company, it’s the employees, and if it doesn’t effect anyone you objectively wasted your time.

And anyway, a lot of what I see people lifting on here is shit you don’t need like makeup (yes, there are studies saying that looking nice equals more job opportunities, but to survive you don’t need it) or other beauty supplies.
On beauty supplies, I have a difficult natural hairstyle and I don’t do a lot with it and I still get compliments, even though I don’t want them.
Like, if you legitimately can’t afford food or clothes (not can’t afford designer clothes, though, or to eat at a fancy restaurant) and your job legitimately does not pay enough, then TO AN EXTENT I could excuse you shoplifting. But that doesn’t make it legal or moral.

I don’t even like that no-recess harping on about shoplifting but holy fuck these are some Bad Opinions

Mind explaining?

Shoplifting may be a stupid decision if you have other options – the last thing proletarians need is a record. But the arbitrary point at which you say “what you need to survive” is unjustified – just represented as true. You must know by now that unemployment is structural, to some degree – some people are always going to be unemployed. This was even true during the post war boom, though at a much lower rate.

Welfare may not actually be enough, and there are reasons people can’t get it. There are also situations where you’re economically dependent on someone else – but that someone else has authority over you and will withhold things you may feel are extremely important if not totally necessary. For example, trans women are under pressure to “present” adequately, and to fail to do so can often be life threatening.

You are probably right that businesses aren’t harmed – but there is no evidence at all that workers are ever harmed by shoplifting. As has been pointed out to you *repeatedly* by far the most amount of theft from a workplace is done by the people who work there.

As for whether it’s “legal”…??? who the fuck said anything about shoplifting being legal? It is legal for someone to die of hunger on the street while a grocery store throws out slightly damaged food products and locks it away behind fences, barbed wire, security etc – let alone food they still want to sell. Legality is basically irrelevant.

As for morality, well – you have said no one is harmed. What is your morality if not based around harm I’m wondering? I don’t have much time for ethical systems but unless you’re gonna support a categorical imperative to never steal?? I kinda doubt that? It seems untenable.

As for your hairstyle.. what the fuck are you talking about? Seriously?  

I’d respond more adequately, and your points are valid, but I don’t have time.

It only takes a comb for some hairstyles, even though they do more. My point was cabinets of hair products and makeup is beyond impractical if you’re struggling to pay for food and clothing.
Stealing is immoral, am I wrong here?

Honestly, you’re mad at the FDA for not selling bad food? I’m sorry, forget the industrialization age of the US and improvement of society. Seriously, though, if the food is broken, not ruined or inedible, they should take it somewhere where it can be eaten.

Actually, though, that’s never been pointed out to me.

Groups sometimes steal that food that is fine but not nice enough for selling. Dented tins, etc. Food Not Bombs is the most famous. Of course, what they are doing – dumpster diving – is also classed as theft. 

I don’t think stealing is immoral, I don’t think every kind of property right is a moral judgement – merely a legal framework which seems very very good at letting some vast wealth accumulate to a few people while others do, literally, die in poverty..

If you knew much at all about industrial food production you’d know that tonnes and tonnes of produce are simply never sold at all because its ugly or misshapen. In France there are legal rights for ‘Gleaners’ in many provinces to go and collect as much of that as they like – but this is not the case in most countries (If this is interesting to anyone I recommend “The Gleaners and I” by Agnes Varda, its a good film).

Anyway I still think you’re in a sticky situation where you say that no one is harmed by shoplifting, really, except for maybe the shoplifter if they are caught. As such, what makes it immoral? The magical aura around private property that, if transgressed, the private property gods will weep and bring on the end times? 

Like I say, too much of your statements are just presented as true without really being argued. I don’t back church-of-no-recess in encouraging people to shoplift. It strikes me as equally as foolish as adventurist activism which can get you a criminal record- and for what? Some symbolic action drawing attention to socierty being a bit shit? Hardly a great way to build workers power. 

I can see how our laws inherently effect other groups.
It may only be immoral in that it’s illegal, which isn’t really a set in stone moral. However, morals are based on a society.
And in society right now, although this is more about general stealing than shoplifting, people have to work for the items they have. So you’d be taking something they had worked for.
And I can see how shoplifting could be morally excusable in that the business didn’t really work for the items, and like you said, shoplifting only risks you getting caught.